Gerri Detweiler 00:00
Our founder,co founder Levi king, he had a sign manufacturing business, he actually lost a big job but couldn’t figure out why, this was a sign build out for a car dealership. And finally, the guy pulled him aside and showed him the competitor who won hold Levi’s business’s credit report and included it in their bid. Levi Unbeknown Lee had or unbeknownst had some negative business credit from a company whose assets he had acquired. So he didn’t even know this was a thing. He didn’t know it was an issue, and it lost him a job.
Matt Shields 00:38
Hey, it’s Matt, and this is Pass the Secret Sauce. Gerri is a business credit and financing expert with more than 20 years of experience guiding individuals through the confusing world of credit. During the 2008-2009 financial crisis Gerri was one of the go to experts on financing and credit, answering hundreds of questions from both media and individuals. Today Gerri serves as education director for nav a service that matches small business owners to their best financing options and gives free access to personal and business credit scores.
Gerri Detweiler 01:20
My dinner table when I was growing up in Michigan often involved vegetables. My dad had a big garden and he loved his he always called them fresh garden vegetables and as kids we rolled our eyes thought it was the most ridiculous thing and didn’t really like the vegetables that much but of course now I wish I just wish I had that. Yeah, but I grew up with a teacher and a nurse as parent two siblings and I had a great childhood
Matt Shields 01:49
What was your favorite vegetable growing up?
Gerri Detweiler 01:53
That’s a great question. You know, I would say at my mom makes the most amazing lima beans.
Matt Shields 01:58
Really? That’s an interesting one.
Gerri Detweiler 02:00
Yeah, yeah, they’re really good. And my brother hates lima beans.
Matt Shields 02:05
Did you guys actually grow lima beans?
Gerri Detweiler 02:07
I think she did. She did have a very extensive garden. So I think they did.
Matt Shields 02:12
That’s cool. I mean, I obviously lima beans have to be grown but I don’t think I’ve ever had a fresh lima bean before they always come out of a can so are frozen or something interesting.
Gerri Detweiler 02:21
Mom’s recipe is really good.
Matt Shields 02:21
That’s awesome. So so you’re obviously in credit today? Was there some type of a catalyst that brought you into that into that field?
Gerri Detweiler 02:32
Well, I fell into my job. I was in DC after college and fell into a job with a consumer advocacy group. And it turned out to be a great career, but I didn’t plan for it , expect it. But we were a group that was educating and advocating for individuals around credit. So I got to work on the legislation that gave consumers free credit reports. I got to work on the legislation that told you what your credit card interest rate might be before you actually got it in the mail and then found out and then I actually wrote the first mass market book about FICO scores back in the day. So I’ve been in this field for a long time and what’s really fun for me right now working at NAV and I have to say, as we’re speaking today, it’s very stressful obviously trying to get information out to small business owners who are struggling because of Coronavirus. But if you ask me about my job in general, I love it because, you know, small business owners fast forward and I’m in a time warp and small business owners don’t get free credit reports. They don’t get an APR for the financing that they’re checking out. They have very few rights when it comes to credit and financing. And so being able to educate them and empower them to make better decisions and also to bring the personal credit side into it is is just really satisfying.
Matt Shields 03:47
Actually want most of our listeners all have, you know, businesses as well. So they’re all entrepreneurial. What would you say is one of the biggest mistakes that you see entrepreneurs or business owners making with their credit
Gerri Detweiler 04:01
I think the biggest mistake that most small business owners make with their credit is they just rely for too long on their personal credit. And they don’t really proactively start to build business credit and I understand why because it’s really very opaque. No one tells you that you…well, first of all, you you don’t have a right to a free business credit report. And I don’t know if you know this Matt, but Dun and Bradstreet, which is you know, one of the big business credit bureaus they’ve been around since the 1800s. Abraham Lincoln worked on Dun and Bradstreet back in the day as a reporter gathering information for merchants for their system. So they’ve been around a long time, but because there’s no transparency, there’s no federal law. Business owners just don’t know about it. And they also don’t know if it’s impacted their business. So our co founder, Levi king, he had as sign manufacturing business, he actually lost a big job but couldn’t figure out why, this was a sign build out for a car dealership. And finally The guy pulled him aside and showed him the competitor who won hold Levi’s business’s credit report and included it in their bid. Levi unbeknowingly had or unbeknownst had had some negative business credit from a company whose assets he had acquired. So he didn’t even know this was a thing. He didn’t know it was an issue, and it lost him a job. So being able to help business owners understand that they can build and leverage business credit and start moving away from personal credit, negotiatiate better terms of their suppliers. That’s something I really enjoy doing.
Matt Shields 05:40
You mentioned moving away from your personal credit and kind of separating the two what are the steps that you would take to that? And at what point do you start taking those steps?
Gerri Detweiler 05:51
Well, just like personal credit, the sooner you do, the better, right, so the sooner you start building credit, the more you’ll be able to build solid credit because it takes time you know you’ve made a payment history. But what’s really different about business credit is, with personal credit, you get a credit card or mortgage or Carla, it’s going to show up on all three of your consumer credit reports, right Equifax, Experian, TransUnion, it’s almost given, it’s going to show up on all three. With business credit, it’s not as consistent on the reporting side. So you might find that, hey, that lender reports to one of the business credit bureaus, but not the other, or, oh, that account isn’t showing up at all. And so you have to be proactive about doing business with companies that report if you want to build business credit, but doing that, in turn, means that you have better business credit and then you can go out and get more credit that’s based on the business’s history as opposed to just you personally.
Matt Shields 06:46
Okay, got it. You made me think of many different things here. You mentioned there’s a couple of different business credit reporting bureaus. Yes, agencies. Yeah. What are their names? I mean, I always thought it was basically Dun and Bradstreet. Dun and Bradstreet was kind of the the main one that gathered all of the information and whether or not they’re the ones who actually issue the credit scores. I don’t really know.
Gerri Detweiler 07:08
Yeah, so they are sort of the granddaddy of business credit, but Experian also has a whole small business and commercial credit reporting division completely separate from consumer and then Equifax has the same thing. And then there are other bureaus out there, there’s credit safe and Sonia other ones but those are the three that we focus on at NAV, they’re the ones we give our you know customers for free and they’re the three that if you focus on building business credit there, you know, you should be covered in terms of the opportunities and to the credit score question. They all have their own credit scores. So with consumer credit FICO creates the formula and then they partner with one of the credit bureaus to use that data to create the FICO score, you know, based on Experian data Equifax. With business credit they tend to have their own proprietary scores so you might have heard of DMV paydex. That’s a well known summary. That’s one of their scores. It’s not the only one they have, but it’s one of their scores. Experian has intelliscore and that’s their business credit score. And then Equifax has a variety of different scores. The one we show to our NAV customers is their delinquency risk score, which automatically sounds terrible, but it doesn’t mean you’re delinquent. It’s just the name of the scoring model. So there are various scoring models and the score ranges are going to vary depending on which one you’re looking at as well.
Matt Shields 08:28
Okay, got it. Got it. And so, when you’re making this jump from separating your personal to the business credit, what would you suggest. The way that I’ve heard it the best approach was to approach other vendors that you knew reported to the credit bureaus and basically ask for credit from them. And then you know, you could leverage those relationships and that payment history when you went to get credit from the next company, is that basically how it works?
Gerri Detweiler 09:08
That’s a great first step. And in fact, we have a free business credit building checklist. So I’ll share that with you so you can share it with your listeners as well. I do think the process starts out like you’re on parallel tracks, right? So you’re working on your business and personal and then eventually that business credit becomes strong enough that you can move off onto that track and less impact from personal credit doesn’t mean you’re never going to use it and lenders, banks love to check personal credit, they love love, love check personal credit. So it’s they’re going to be playing a role but you’re going to try to move you’re trying to get along that business credit track as much as possible. So two things I recommend at the very beginning, and one is to get vendor accounts which you mentioned and we have a list of those easy to get don’t check personal credit report to business credit. And then the other is a business small business credit card. So most of the major small business credit card issuers Do report to at least one of the major business credit reporting agencies. Some report everything to personal, some don’t report to personal unless you default. So that’s another thing to keep in mind. If you carry balances in your business or have a lot of charge volume, then you might want to choose a card that maybe stays off your personal credit just to avoid any kind of utilization issue on personal credit.
Matt Shields 10:24
So for me, I’ve got a Chase I forget what they call it, but it’s like the the Chase paid version for the business, Chase Inc, whatever the top one is. And we actually just recently started another company. And I went out to try to basically get the exact same credit card for that other company. When I originally signed up for it I had to use my personal credit in order to be able to secure that one. And I noticed that I got dinged for the credit pull on my personal credit report, but because It was a business account, it wasn’t reporting to the credit bureau. So I have a $40,000 credit card that isn’t necessarily showing up on the personal side. But it it dinged me on the credit pull when they did it. So is there a way to be able to, you know, if you are leveraging your personal credit, is there a way to be able to leverage the additional credit that you’re you’re able to secure using your personal one so that it helps your personal one rather than it just basically being a burden on it?
Gerri Detweiler 11:34
So all of the major small business credit card issuers do do a personal credit check, and they require a personal guarantee. So that’s a given you’re not going to get away from that. On the other hand, as you experience some of them are not going to show up on your personal credit. It varies by issuer, we have a list, but it some of them are not going to show up on your personal credit unless you were to default. So as long as you don’t default. It’s not gonna affect your personal credit. So it depends on what your goal is how you want to approach that, for some business owners, they might want that account a period on their personal credit because maybe they’re, let’s say an immigrant who’s starting a business and needs to build personal credit and business credit at the same time, right? So they want that showing up on both accounts. On the other hand, what I’ve seen very often that is business owners who have who it shows up on their personal credit then they have a large transaction and it brings down their personal credit score. So let me give you a quick example. I was in a workshop a small business advisor told me he had a client who she had some funding fall through at the last minute but she had a good business so she maxed order credit cards – personal and business- right she maxed out used all of it. Her credit scores, her personal credit scores dropped big time because she was maxed out on these personal credit cards and that’s a factor on your personal credit scores. No way to get around that if it shows up. Then she was able a year later to get an SBA loan and refinance that loan or refinance the credit card debt pay off those credit cards. Her credit scores, her personal credit scores jumped 125 points. Because she brought down that utilization. So this is just something I want business owners to be aware of, because sometimes they aren’t and they just don’t know and particularly right now where a lot of lending has become very tough really quickly due to the Coronavirus crisis, you want to have that flexibility and a credit card might be that flexibility. And so if you’re going to max out a credit card, it might be better to stick to your business credit card that isn’t gonna affect your personal credit scores.
Matt Shields 13:42
And just for the listeners who may not quite understand the utilization rates, can you give the limits I guess you can say, where you want to try to stay below. So how does that work?
Gerri Detweiler 13:57
The next most important factor is your debt and the biggest thing that Look at there is how close you are to your credit limits on your revolving accounts like credit cards. And there’s no magic number, it varies, but most consumers may start to see an impact after 25 to 30% utilization. So that means you have $1,000 credit limit your balance reports as $350 that could start to impact your score. It’s a percentage it’s not a dollar amount. I had a friend who called me after Christmas, she freaked out because her credit score went down like 40 points and it turns out she used her retail credit card she had $1,000 limit she charged $700. And your credit card company sends your balance to the credit bureaus. At the time they around the time they send you a bill. They don’t wait to see how much you’ve paid, right? They say, well, you owe us $753, you can make the minimum or you can you know pay in full. That’s when they report to the credit bureau. So in her case, she looked like she was 70% utilized. I said just pay it off, see what happens next month. Sure enough it bounced right back up. So what’s the guideline, it does vary. But I say what I say to consumers or business owners is try to get all them down below a certain threshold. So let’s say you have some high balance credit cards, try to get them all below say 50% because they look at each one and all together and then go down to 45% then 40 and get to a point where you’re getting the results you want and it’s not coming up as a major factor impacting your credit scores. For some people that might be 25%, for some people, it might I have a long credit history, I’m not that young. I have a lot of accounts good payment history, I I can get away with 40% and I don’t see much happen but my co workers at NAV who are in their 20s and just establishing credit, you know, they can see big swings if they get above say 25-28 -30% range.
Matt Shields 15:53
I use Credit Karma and Experian, to check every now and then, depending on what version you use, it can say that it’s the either pulling Experian or pulling the same information. But depending on which platform you’re using, you can have vastly different scores. Can you elaborate a little bit on why that is? And I guess what is accurate? You know, what’s my real score?
Gerri Detweiler 16:20
That’s the question I hear so often. I’ll try to break it down real simply and in a succinct way. There are two main companies that help create credit scores FICO and Vantage score. FICO has been around since the 1950s Vantage score has been around for 10 years. They are a competitor to FICO created by the credit bureaus. If you are getting through a free credit score through a service like Credit Karma or NAV, you will get a Vantage score. Why because it’s much more affordable and FICO scores are pretty expensive to provide for free to customers. But when you’re checking with your credit card company, they’re actually showing you the score that they pulled to make The decision. And so if that’s a FICO score, they’re going to show you that FICO score because what FICO says is, hey, you already paid us for this credit score, you can show it to your customer for free. Also, FICO doesn’t want to be regulated, they don’t want to have to show these for free, right? So that that may may be another reason. So the score is going to vary depending on which bureau has the data, which credit score, you know, company is doing the calculation, and they’re a little bit different. And then finally, which version of the credit score they’re using. FICO has over 40 different versions of FICO scores. So that could depend you know, your credit card, the one you see with a credit card is probably a FICO bank card 8 at and that’s a score that’s developed to predict how you’re going to pay a credit card, how you’re gonna handle a credit card, you go into an auto dealer, same day could be same bureau, they pull a different FICO score because they’re pulling an auto score which is designed to predict how you’re going to handle an auto loan. The scores are adjusted, depending on what that lender is trying to predict or accomplish, you know, they’re trying to reduce their risk. So what I say to consumers is, here’s the two things I say number one is, first, make sure you’re checking your credit with all three bureaus: Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion. They don’t share information with each other. It could be different I had years ago, my mortgage company reported me six times late on a mortgage. It was inaccurate, but it showed up showed up on one bureau than another and then another, so that’s a possibility. Second thing is that you want to make sure that you look at what’s it telling you about your score, you know, is it saying your score is great? Is it saying it could use some work? And when it tells you that what, what factors are coming up, is it saying it’s your payment history or your debt or something else and see if there’s something you can do about that factor. If it’s something like too few retail cards with balances. I don’t want you to run out and get away retail card and put a balance on it. You don’t have to do that sometimes if you have really good credit, the reason seemed kind of weird, because they don’t make sense to you. But look at what it’s telling you and then see what can I do about it. And that’s really what you should focus on as opposed to, oh, this number is the right number because, frankly, you don’t always know. You don’t know what the lender is gonna pull you don’t which bureau they’re going to pull from. So you just want to stay on top of, of the basics so that you can make sure your credit is as strong as possible.
Matt Shields 19:27
Excellent. What advice would you give to someone today that has poor credit? Is there anything that they should be doing any services that they can utilize to help their credit scores?
Gerri Detweiler 19:41
Yeah, this is a tough time. I mean, as we’re talking you know, today we’re in the midst of the Coronavirus crisis and shut down. But I’m gonna give one piece of general advice that would be long lasting no matter when you’re watching this and then one piece of advice for right now in this specific. My long lasting advice is: there’s always something you can do with your credit, even if you have negative information you file for bankruptcy last week, there’s things you can do to build credit. So it varies depending on what’s bringing down your score. Credit repair is not a cure all, it’s a convenient way to get someone to dispute information on your credit report. If you don’t have time to do that, but there’s no magic to it, you don’t, you know, you can do the same thing yourself if you have the time and inclination. So I wouldn’t rely on credit repair, I’d say, really look at your credit reports, look at what the scores are saying what’s bringing down your credit, and then address, see what your game plan is for those factors. And I’d be happy to share a free guide I’ve written on this that could be helpful. And then the second thing I’d say for right now when you’re in a crisis situation, is your goal is to preserve and pay minimum payments as much as possible. Even if that means you don’t carry a credit card balance, but you’re going to have to because you’re going to try to preserve some cash flow, don’t beat yourself up about it. It is what it is. As long as you make the minimum payment on time, you won’t impact your payment history. Now yes, the debt could impact your credit score. But don’t focus on that right now, because that’s something that later on hopefully you can address. But the payment history is really important to try to make at least the minimum payment. But at the same time, reach out to all your lenders. We’re at a time where lenders are trying to respond very quickly to issues that they know their customers are going to have in terms of payments, some are waiving payments, some are deferring payments, some are you know, making adjustments, allowing consumers to make lower payments, reach out and find out what your lender is doing and don’t be afraid to request the help. It’s it’s not a moral failing on your part. We’re in the middle of a crisis. It’s okay to do that. So those would be the two things that I would say are important.
Matt Shields 21:56
Okay. And along the lines of, you’ve mentioned this black swan event that we’re sort of in the middle of right now. Are you seeing any programs or anything like that, that the the business owners, and actually I guess the consumers should be aware of?
Gerri Detweiler 22:13
Yeah, this is super fast moving. A lot of lenders are saying they’re doing that on a case by case basis at the moment. So we haven’t had a lot of lenders announced, you know, although I have to say like my auto insurance is through Geico, and they emailed and said, we won’t cancel anyone due to non payment of premium through the I think it was the end of April. So there are some that are just saying, hey, here’s what we’re going to do to try to help you. But yes, as of today, we’re talking the stimulus bill as expected to be passed and enacted. Haven’t seen all the details of that but include some mortgage assistance so you could not make your payments for I think it’s six months and not be counted late as a result of that. Some lenders are moving payments to the end of the loan and allowing you not to make payments. There will be loans for small business owners who’ve already opened up the disaster loan program to those whose businesses have been affected by COVID-19. I’m highly encouraging business owners to apply for that. It’s a low interest rate loan, 3.75% up to $2 million, amortized over 30 years no payments for the first year. This could be a lifeline for some small business owners. It applies to individuals who are small business owners who file a schedule c, no employees, as well as small business owners, up to 500 employees depending on SBA size standards. So, you know, most small businesses are going to qualify based on that. That is a free application you fill out on the disaster assistance website, we can we can give you a link to share, but I’m really encouraging business owners to look at that. The other thing is we expect an expanded SBA loan program. So disaster loans can come directly from the SBA, but most SBA loans don’t come from the SBA. They come from lenders and then the SBA guarantees that. So the new program is designed to increase the guaranteed to a 100% not to require a personal guarantee, which traditionally, that’s always been a feat a requirement of SBA loans. And it will provide, of course, some deferred payments, you know, to make payments right away. And there, we’re expected to have a forgiveness provision, that if you’re a business who has employees, and you keep those employees substantially working, you can actually ask to have part of the loan forgiven. So this is all fast moving, we’re trying to keep up with it at the NAV blog and provide the latest programs, but I cannot encourage business owners enough, if you have been impacted by this crisis, you need to jump on these things and get in line. Because this is an unprecedent volume of you know, disaster. And you want to have that ticket that has your number on it. Hopefully some assistance will be available. I will warn though, that it’s not gonna be overnight because they’ve got to process all these applications. So in the meantime, at NAV, we’re trying to help small business owners who can still get financing, find financing for the interim, you may need to tap those credit cards as I mentioned or a line of credit, if you already have one, now’s the time to draw on it. I would say, you know, use the resources at your disposal right now. I know this is not ideal, loans are not what business owners want right now. But it could be what you need to get through this part of the crisis, and then we’ll see how the additional relief measures play out in the future.
Matt Shields 25:34
And and you mentioned that some of those loans, or those programs don’t have any type of qualification. Is there any type of rule of thumb, I guess you can say that I’m in this category so this is going to be the best program for me or is it going out and trying to apply for all the different options out there?
Gerri Detweiler 25:59
Here’s what I’m telling small business owners number one if your business has not, you know dropped off a cliff then look at any kind of financing you get. We’ll help you at NAV trying to find out what’s out there. We’re not a lender, we work with multiple lenders, you talk to your current financial institution, again, tap what you have right now because that’s going to be the shortest term money that you can get. Then I would not hesitate to apply for the disaster loan. Because again, people are already applying in heavy volume, and you don’t have to accept it. So if something else if turns out you’re better candidate for seven a, and when we see what that looks like after the stimulus bill is packed, get over past a release, then you don’t have to accept it. You can always if you get approved, you could say no thanks. Or you could say I don’t want that much, I only want this much. It’s up to you and go back to the well and apply for more later if it rurns out the disaster last longer. That’s one that’s a given if you can apply for that. And then the third would be, keep your eye open, we’ll be writing about this, but keep your eye open for the other loans that are coming. And then finally, speak to your legislators because it doesn’t look like the grants are going to be included in this wave of relief. And I know that was a hope for many small business owners, especially very small businesses to have a grant that they wouldn’t have to repay. And if you think that would be helpful to your business, let your legislators know because I’m confident there will be additional stimulus packages coming out in the future and they need to know what you’re experiencing.
Matt Shields 27:42
Why don’t you give everyone a taste/flavor of what NAV actually does?
Gerri Detweiler 27:46
Sure. Most business owners come toNAV because they understand or they found out that they can check their business credit for free with us. So we’re the only place where you can get free business credit reports from Dun and Bradstreet, Equifax and Experian. And then we also show you your Experian personal credit as well. And then we provide free credit monitoring so very much like Credit Karma, but for small business right? And then, but our goal is to use that data to do two things. One is to help you match you to financing so we work with like I said lenders all over the country, everything from all the major credit card issuers to SBA loans, CDFIs, online lenders, etc, and will show you which financing options are a fit based on your qualifications. And then we’ll help you, if you need help with a small business loan application, we have experienced staff who can help you with that as well and help you get that package, you know, to close if you qualify for it. And then we’re really focused on helping you build your credit and financial health so that later on let’s say, this crisis is past, you have some breathing room, we want to help you build on that so you can get better and better financing in the future. And for most small business owners it’s just a mystery. Small business finance is not transparent. They don’t understand what it costs, they don’t understand the qualification. We want to help you build your qualifications so that when you need financing in the future, you’re in a better position to get better financing.
Matt Shields 29:13
Yes, yes, absolutely. And I assume that this is only US based too, correct?
Gerri Detweiler 29:17
It is only US based at this time. Yes. Correct.
Matt Shields 29:20
Is there? Is there plans to move forward with that in the future?
Gerri Detweiler 29:23
There’s a lot of interest. Business credits all over the world. It’s different, but Dun and Bradstreet, for example, Experian is a UK based company. So they’re in any other country. So hopefully, hopefully, once we get through immediate crisis, we can go back to focusing on helping even more small business owners.
Matt Shields 29:44
Absolutely. And what information do you need to pull your business credit from from NAV? Is it based off of my social security number? Or?
Gerri Detweiler 29:56
That’s a great question. So the name of your business and your zip code. A lot of business owners assume that their EIN, their employer identification number is like it is your social security number for your personal credit, but it’s not the bureau may or may not have that number but they’ll create their own identifier. So you probably heard of a Duns number. Have you heard of that? Duns number? So that’s the number that Dun and Bradstreet creates to identify your business in their system. And then Equifax creates its own Equifax ID and Experian has their own. And so there’s called a bin number. So you don’t have to worry about that. All you have to do is have the name of your business and the address. And if if you have a business credit report with any of those agencies, then you say yes, that’s my business. We’ll pull it in and show it to you. If you don’t, then we’re going to give you tips on how to build business credit, but you will have to ask, you have to answer identity verification to pull in your personal credit and we highly recommend that because some lenders, a lot of small business lenders, even if they don’t do a hard personal credit check, which means the type that affected your credit score when you apply for that credit card. Many of them do a soft credit check where they will check the owner’s personal credit, won’t result in an inquiry. But it is part of their underwriting just to make sure there’s no red flags that are going to prevent them from lending to your business. So we do recommend you complete your NAV account by by verifying your identity and personal credit is very restricted. So you’ll have to answer security questions.
Matt Shields 31:29
Yeah, interesting. Yeah, this is this is fantastic. You’ve opened up my eyes to quite a few different ways to be able to improve my business credit. I have no idea. I know I have good personal credit, but I don’t know what my business credit is at all. So I will certainly be signing up and figuring all of that out very, very soon. Do you do you have any ways that you want people to reach out to you or is it just reach out to NAV?
Gerri Detweiler 32:01
So if you go to nav.com/podcast, you can download our business credit building checklist. It doesn’t require an email or anything you just download it right there and that’s going to walk you step by step through how to build business credit and there are some very easy vendors for example who don’t check personal credit they’ll give you a small credit line to start so you can do that right now regardless of your personal credit. And then I would also encourage you, if you’re experiencing financial stress due to the Coronavirus, which many business owners are, come to the nav blog, just nav.com/blog. We are literally everyday, publishing stories of resources. We have a list of 50 states and all the resources they’re offering right now, we have how do you qualify for the stimulus funding, what can you do if you can’t pay your bills due to Coronavirus etc, etc. So you’ll find educational information there that will hopefully help you understand your options and navigate you know this very challenging time. And then you can always call our customer support team. Once you have a NAV account, reach out to them and a lending specialist is happy to talk to you.
Matt Shields 33:09
Perfect. I appreciate it. Well, I’m sure that we will be talking again, this has been fantastic information and obviously credit is always going to be changing, you know, situations a little unique right now, but in the future, we will have you back on again then talk about what’s new then.